Offense chokes in the fourth as Raptors exit NBA playoffs
Posted by Arsenalist on April 29, 2008
As I watched the final two minutes tick away on mute I realized that this was my least favorite Raptors team ever. Yes, even worse than that third year crew that went 16-66. It’s probably because with that team there were no expectations or hype, just a hope to improve and to maybe build something worthwhile. Even as they trudged their way across double digit losing streaks, it was still more enjoyable to watch because they desperately wanted to break out of their losing, they wanted to get to the next level. They knew they had issues and fought hard to overcome them, our pseudo star Damon Stoudamire took every shot in the clutch, he made some and missed many but never shied away from the challenge. He was feisty, fiery and never backed down. Despite the losing, you knew we’d come out and compete, we’d probably lose but you knew we’d be upset about it. You felt an attachment to those guys, with this team, I felt nothing.
The Magic basically won this series by running the same play 250 times - the drive ‘n kick. The actors in the play changed but that was the gist of it. It was with ease that they got into the paint and passed to waiting shooters as we helpless watched them launch uncontested jumpers hoping they’d miss. There was never a defensive adjustment made to remedy this problem, we talked about it in the pre-game and post-game press conferences but the coaches and players were never able to deliver where it mattered the most - on the floor. The success Jameer Nelson, Hedo Turkoglo, Rashard Lewis and even Keyon Dooling had against our perimeter defense was the primary reason we lost. Our late close-outs on corner-snipers Keith Bogans and Maurice Evans were always a result of either late recovery or unnecessary and half-thought double teams.
To make matters worse, it seemed like every time the Magic missed, Dwight Howard got the rebound and slammed one so hard that it made the Raptors shrink. Tonight was a great example - 16 offensive rebounds for the Magic on their way to a resounding 55-37 drubbing. Wow! I never quite understood why we played ’small ball’, to me that was one of the reasons why we struggled. Rasho Nesterovic is the Raptor most capable of troubling Dwight Howard and was never put to use. Instead we went with the pathetic Bargnani who couldn’t give us anything on either end of the floor, or with Bosh who spent so much energy on defense that his offense was shot. We watched Howard get deep post positioning against Bosh and Bargnani as Rasho simply withered away on the bench, victim of a scheme that only on the surface appears to work.
It took us five games before Dwight Howard picked up five defensive fouls in a game. Before the series began a common fan’s perception was that the Raptors could get Dwight Howard out of the game early by forcing him to defend Bosh or Bargnani who possess better lateral quicks than the Magic beast. That never happened, Bargnani never bothered to take anything other than a 21+ footer and Chris Bosh settled for jumpers too early and too often to bother Howard. The result was that the foul-prone Howard stayed in the game far too long and had a huge impact by crashing the offensive glass, blocking shots, pinning Bosh for low-post scores and drawing doubles that were easy to break. In other words, the underlying theme of the series was the complete domination of Chris Bosh at the hands of Dwight Howard.
The use of the bench was questionable. I’ve already touched on what Rasho could’ve brought us but the two other pieces that were never used were Kris Humphries and Joey Graham. Anthony Parker who had a miserable series couldn’t ever close-out Bogans, Turkoglo or Evans and had trouble staying with Hedo in one-on-one situations. Rashard Lewis broke down Chris Bosh at will and posted up Delfino without breaking a sweat. Yet we never saw Sam Mitchell give the stronger and more athletic Joey Graham a chance against Lewis or Hedo. I’m not saying he would’ve shut them down but there’s no way he could’ve been as bad as Parker or Delfino on the perimeter. At least give him a shot and see what you can get, no?
You can make a case that if Kris Humphries had gotten Andrea Bargnani’s minutes this series would’ve been longer. At least Humphries plays hard, grabs rebounds and can hit a mid-range jumper. Bargnani did nothing, he was about as useless as tits on a nun. With the rebounding differential as bad as it’s been you’d think we’d do what we can to rectify that problem but Sam Mitchell chose to play ’small ball’ and opted to get out-rebounded in exchange for I don’t even know what. Asking Chris Bosh to defend Dwight Howard over a series might be one of the most ridiculous things Mitchell will ever do. It would’ve been better to waste Primoz Brezec’s 6 fouls before we asked our primary offensive weapon to also guard their best player.
Finally we get to Sam Mitchell who practically handed the Magic a 2-0 series lead by putting out a starting lineup that had NEVER played together and asked the struggling Bargnani to play a position he had NEVER played in his life. A stupider move has never been made and will never be made in the NBA playoffs. Mitchell was unable to tweak the Raptors offense to account for Lewis’ defense on Bosh and wasn’t able to counter the pressure the Magic applied on our point guards. On defense he wasn’t able to devise a plan for Dwight Howard who ate us alive and couldn’t get a lineup out that could neutralize the weakness we were having at the point of attack which resulted in those deadly Magic threes. The Raptors played Game 1 the same way they played Game 5. There wasn’t a thing we did differently. Contrast this to the Magic who made various adjustments, from pressuring Raptor PGs to hard-doubles on Bosh, from fixing their Game 3 pick ‘n roll issues to switching in Game 4, establishing Howard in the post, focusing on Lewis/Hedo driving, PG penetration etc. Whenever they had a problem, they fixed it. The Raptors never bothered, they just hoped the Magic would miss.
There was one play tonight which showed just how unprepared and thoughtless the Raptors defense is. In the third quarter Carlos Delfino doubled Dwight Howard 12ft from the rim only to leave his man Keith Bogans wide open. Howard made an easy pass to Bogans for a three. That play told me that the Raptors have zero idea on how to double team and when to double team - a problem that was obvious in Game 1. What is the need to double team Howard that far out? Absolutely none. It’s sad to see that the Raptors still hadn’t grasped this simple concept this late in the series.
When you suffer a series loss such as this you have to question and evaluate a few things and on the top of the list is Chris Bosh. His late fourth quarter disappearing acts became the norm in the series. A lot of the problems with our clutch offense has to do with dumping the ball to Bosh and 4 guys watching him operate against Howard who forces him to take a low-percentage shot which has zero chance of being rebounded. Even so, its ultimately Bosh’s responsibility to be aggressive and not settle for mid-range jumpers, fadeaways and other such nonsense. The incentive to draw fouls on Howard should be more than enough for Bosh to immediately take Howard to the rim instead of dancing around and stepping back for 16 footers. I’m tired of Chuck and Leo continuing to praise Bosh’s mid-range game which is mediocre at best and far from being reliable. What I’m trying to get at is Bosh was passive in the late fourth quarter and failed to deliver in the clutch. I appreciate his defensive effort but it needed to be said.
Carlos Delfino’s late fourth quarter chuck tonight was equally as bad as his two late chucks in Game 4. When you have no discipline in your offense players feel like its up to them to “make a play” and it just so happened that Carlos felt a calling from God to make it happen. Unfortunately, he failed. TJ Ford tried to take the game over singlehandedly yet again and got suckered into one-on-one play against Jameer Nelson. Nelson wisely took advantage of the roaming Ford and hit his fair share of wide open jumpers - still haven’t figured out what Nelson needs to do for us to finally figure out that he can convert open looks. Calderon was no better in the series, he failed to turn the corner off of screens and never had the opportunity to take it to the rim because of Van Gundy’s middle-heavy defense - aka Howard. His best contribution in the series had to be his outside shooting which is welcome but he’s far more dangerous when he’s a threat to drive - the Magic did a great job of taking that away from him.
Andrea Bargnani is sick. He is allergic to rebounding, if you see him get a few rebounds in the box score its always because they fell right in his lap. He didn’t get a contested rebound all series and was never even a minute factor in any of the games. There were too many occasions where he was caught watching the play instead of being a part of it. I’m not sure what his summer school entails but I’m guessing a lot of it will have to do with technical matters such as footwork and shooting. What he really needs is somebody to inject him with some passion and intensity, I doubt that’s going to happen, if he’s as bad as this next year, we need to ship his ass out by the trading deadline or next summer. None of this 5-year plan bullshit.
So the Raptors keep the game close and choke in the fourth quarter as the Magic continue to drain threes and Dwight Howard continues to eat us alive on the boards and the paint. Nothing new to speak of here. The season is over and its one of the most disappointing ones ever. This was a failed season, we regressed from last year because the scouting reports caught up with us and we never addressed our needs from the end of last season - defense and rebounding. Bryan Colangelo has another chance to address those exact same needs this summer, maybe last year’s playoff blinded him a little but this year there is no doubt - he needs to fix this team. Status quo is not good.
Sam Mitchell needs to be relieved of his duties and a smarter and more disciplined coach needs to be brought in. Mitchell needs a lot of talent around him to be successful, we don’t have that. We need a coach who can help the players because we don’t have the players that can help the coach.
Thanks for reading the blog this year. I’ve enjoyed writing every post and appreciate every comment from all the posters. I’ll let you guys know what the off-season plans, I got some ideas and it should be fun. Either way, the posts will be flowing.
Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)
This entry was posted on April 29, 2008 at 1:25 am and is filed under Raptors, Sports. Tagged: andrea bargnani, dwight howard, nba playoffs, orlando magic, Rashard Lewis, toronto raptors. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
April 28, 2008 at 10:34 pm
fire sam mitchell
support the cause by going to —————>
http://www.firesammitchell.com
April 29, 2008 at 12:07 am
Time to blow up the Ratpors … ya think ..??!!!
Now what will Colangelo-Gherardini-Ujiri offer tribal-honking Toronto Ratpor fans for 2008-09 season …??!!!
April 29, 2008 at 12:22 am
Sam Mitchell WILL be fired before Bryan Colangelo ever admits that the current Raptors team doesn’t have what it takes to succeed beyond the 1st Round of the NBA Playoffs.
Bryan Colangelo SHOULD receive unbiased appraisals by the local media which examine the job he has so far as the Raptors’ GM, heading into his 3rd full year at the helm.
While many of the team’s ardent supporters trumpet that this coming off-season will be a ‘Make-or-Break’ one for the current management regime with the Raptors and that they ‘trust’ these individuals to do a terrific job continuing to move this team forward … it would be tremendously naive to simply assume that the Raptors’ basketball braintrust has an inherent advantage over and is simply going to out-manouevre the other 14 GM’s working today in the Eastern Conference, who are also looking to improve their team’s prospects for the next season …
1 Boston/Danny Ainge, 66-16 | Garnett, Pierce, Allen-R, Rondo, Powe
2 Detroit/Joe Dumars, 59-23 | Billups, Wallace-R, Hamilton, McDyess, Prince, Stuckey, Maxiell, Johnson
3 Orlando/Otis Smith, 52-30 | Howard, Turkoglu, Lewis
4 Cleveland/Danny Ferry, 45-37 | James, Varejao, Ilgaukas, Gibson, Pavlovic
5 Washington/Ernie Grunfeld, 43-39 | Arenas, Stevenson, Butler, Jamison, Haywood, Daniels, Young, Songaila, Blatche, Pecherov, Mason, Jr, McGuire
6 Toronto/Bryan Colangelo, 41-41 | Bosh, Calderon, ?
7 Philadelphia/Ed Stefanski, 40-42 | Miller, Green, Iguadola, Young, Dalembert, Williams-L, Carney, Evans, Smith-J
8 Atlanta/Billy Knight, 37-45 | Bibby, Johnson, Childress, Smith-J, Horford
9 Indiana/Larry Bird, 36-46 | Tinsley, Dunleavy, Granger, Murphy, O’Neal
10 New Jersey/Rod Thorn, 34-48 | Carter, Jefferson, Harris, Krstic
11 Chicago/John Paxson, 33-49 | Gordon, Sefolosha, Deng, Thomas-T, Noah
12 Charlotte/Bernie Bickerstaff, 32-50 | Felton, Richardson, Wallace-G, Dudley, Okafor, Morrison, May
13 Milwaukee/John Hammond, 26-56 | Redd, Bogut, Villanueva, Jilian
14 New York/Donnie Walsh, 23-59 | Crawford, Lee, ?
15 Miami/Pat Riley, 15-67 | Wade, Marion, Haslem
2008-2009 is going to be an intriguing season for the Toronto Raptors.
April 29, 2008 at 2:22 am
i will not go to another raptor game unless SAM mitchell is fired.
i go to about 6 games a year. Never again until Sam is fired.
April 29, 2008 at 2:53 am
["....this was my least favorite Raptors team ever. ...."]
I’ll have to disagree on this one.
This team may need to redefine it`s PG parts, find a 2 & 3, and somehow sort out Bargs, but it is far and away not like some teams I hated.
When your “top guy” just doesn’t like it here, or better yet, the guy who said he’s not showing up, but gimme my money anyways, now that’s a real treat.
This year’s team may have had players who were not worth their price, and we can argue that one ad nauseum, but the fact is, they did sit on the bench. And I would hazard to guess, they did give a shit.
From my perspective, when it comes to my favourite team,I would rather lose cause we f*&ked up ….. over not giving a f*&k about losing.
Of course I`d rather win and not f*&k up. Unfortunately that takes time and patience. At least this year gives a little more focus. Who would have envisioned the (possible) scenario of Jose staying as the PG of the future, and TJ on to a different world. Things change, and while I may not like the whole, I do like the core of this group.
April 29, 2008 at 3:42 am
sam mitchell is a bum.no rhyme or reason to his moves.he has no clue how to utilize what he has.he does so many things wrong during the course of he game/season to fixate on one thing seems futile….it’s coaching dyslexia 101. to ask bosh to guard howard is absurd,same with bargs.u got primo,rasho and hump.that’s 18 fouls if u have to throw howard a beating in the paint and make him earn it…constant dbls,mayhem.its 84-82 and sam doesn call a play,i’s whoever has the ball shoots offense?..sam truely is clueless…sam better be fired….and tj coming off in the 4th to walk past jose with an outstretched hi five and leave him hanging was deplorable…..tj’s followers are so busy defending him by thrashing the euro content of this team, its sickening….they can all fuck off with tj and sam to new teams…they arent raptor fans.they are pathetic fucks.im really sick of those bastards and their racist bigoted insults…..whether u guys wanna admit it or not cuz u scared of the faggots and their backlash,tj’s west coast tantrum was the end of our season.but hey, they’ll be to busy blaming bargs.they have to blame somebody white on this team to protect “their boy”…sad.
thx arse for the awesome job here.
April 29, 2008 at 6:44 am
So looks like the good times for Carlos DELFINO and the Raptors have come to an end. The Orlando Magic defeated the Raptors 102-92 to win the series 4-1.
In today’s game, the showed tremendous amount of fighting spirit to stay alive in this series. Both of their point guard, TJ and CALDERON played well, Chris BOSH showed plenty of determination and Carlos was the sixth man for them.
Tonight DELFINO posted 14 points, 7 rebounds, 2 assists & 2 steals to finish of what turns out to be his best ever season in his NBA career.
Remember he had a lot of tough times in Detroit. There were plenty of uncertainties about his arrival to the Raps squad. But like Luis SCOLA, he has proven that he can play in the NBA.
On some occasion when others could not deliver, he provides the much needed sparks that the Raptors needed from the bench. He steps in for BOSH when the latter was out injured.
I will be looking forward to see how would the Raptors regroup for next season. Till then, I would like to give thanks to the numerous comments that we’ve received from the entire Raps blogging community.
VAMOS CARLOS!!! VAMOS RAPTORS!!!
http://mundoalbiceleste.blogspot.com/2008/04/playoffs-news-end-for-carlos-raps.html
April 29, 2008 at 7:41 am
Nice work as always,Arsenalist!
some thoughts:
I have to disagree on least favorite team, I think some of the VC ones could compete, for me anyway. Like you say its not so much about the record. Its about what they bring and you make a great point about this years squad.
Dwight is a beasts. 18 rebounds per!!! Orlando is my sleeper in the East. Hope the young man brings it in the next round.
Khandor’s list scares me. It’s what I’ve been touching on in the comments over the last few days and cannot stop thinking about. If this year was bad… next year looks to be much more disappointing. Of course, this all depends on the summer and what it brings.
Glad I found this blog. Keep up the great work.
All the people commenting, you too.
p.s fire Chuck and Leo or I’m starting firethesalmiandcheese.com! :P
April 29, 2008 at 8:00 am
I like Sam. It’s easy to pin the blame on him but the Raps we’re in it most of the time.
I think the difference was we don’t have a 2nd guy who can score, defend or step up. You all know this, we need a 2 guard who can get it done. One guy can’t do it alone.
Garbs is back next year so that will help.
April 29, 2008 at 8:48 am
good job arse. I have to agree that this was one of my least fab raptors teams too. At least VC was entertaining to watch…cock sucker…
Day 1of the smitch watch.
April 29, 2008 at 8:55 am
Arse thanks so much for all the posts and hard work. The Raptors blog world really seemed to grow this year that is for sure.
I am sure we all have to figure out our off season plans for our blogs now.
I like Sam, I like him as a person but just because you like someone does not mean they are right for the job.
FLip the coaches in this series? StAn Van probably still wins.
I enjoyed this team, they frustrated me to all ends but it could be a lot worse looking around the league.
It frustrates me to see teams like the Sixers and Hawks winning games and playing their hearts out when the Raps have better talent overall.
They don’t have the fire or desire.
Just watching how hard Orlando went after balls it was clear they wanted to win.
I think the Raptors as a whole are so bad fundamentally that they need a college coach almost to teach them all the game.
NOt one of the players is from a program or background of being students of the game. I think it shows. Then add Sam and it is a bad scene.
Garbo won’t be back so I can’t see making that a point for improvement. I don’t think his ankle will ever be NBA ready again.
Tossing a Reggie Evens type player in the mix could solve alot of issues but it is not enough.
Bosh can’t be expected to play Dwight Howard ever if you want him to score. What other coach does that?
Hump would of done great work against D-12 and as Arse says, what could it of hurt to try?
If something does not work, you don’t keep trying it and hope it does.
Stan Van saw that Arroyo was getting destroyed and he never saw the floor again.
Rasho was pretty much the most consistent rap for the last 2 months and you don’t use him.
I think Delfino (despite the effort) lost more games this year due to bad moment shots than anyone.
Games are close, the game is ready to be decided and he all of a sudden thinks he is Ginobili or something.
Did the other players not notice Kapono never missed?
anyways
thanks to all the raptors fans, comments and discussions. We are a passionate bunch and I am sure there will be a lot to talk about this off season.
April 29, 2008 at 9:19 am
There’s a huge difference between what SHOULD be done next to fix the problems (plural) with this Raptors team and what WILL be done next, by the involved parties, in an effort to right the ship.
For the sake of Maple Leafs and Raptors fans everywhere … what SHOULD be done by MLSE is that this specific ownership group be forced to SELL/GIVE UP their majority interest in these two pro sports teams.
The ownership model in place right now with these franchises is doomed to failure.
Teams that win championships in these leagues DO NOT get in the game to make $$$ with their investment; making a profit is a complimentary ‘effect’ of winning championships and consistently producing a top tier team.
Owners who get into this ‘business’ because they want to WIN CHAMPIONSHIPS, as their Prime Directive … sometimes succeed and accomplish this goal … and, sometimes, fail in the pursuit of this objective. Essentially, these are two sides of the same coin, both admirable.
However, when team owners decide to run ‘pro sports franchises’ as a way to make a profit, first & foremost, with their investment dollars … these teams DO NOT EVER WIN CHAMPIONSHIPS in the business of pro sports.
This is a CARDINAL Rule … which, if you’re intent on breaking, year-after-year, will eventually gut your team’s ‘Hopes for GLORY’ which is the foundation of the fan base’s interest in truly supporting the team over an extended period of time.
Conversely, what WILL be done with the Raptors this off season and heading into next year?
Whatever Bryan Colangelo wants to be done … to move the team ‘forward’, according to his personal Basketball Philosophy … as long as it’s consistent with the PRIME DIRECTIVE of MLSE to turn a healthy profit annually for this ownership group.
THE goal in Toronto is NOT to field a team that’s capable of winning the Stanley Cup or the Larry O’Brien Trophy, in May/June … it’s to make more $$$, BOTTOM LINE … which is no way to ever bring another major league pro sports championship to the World Class City of Toronto.
April 29, 2008 at 9:32 am
khandor, nice to hear (read?) you talking sense. It’s too bad but it’s the hard truth; commitments are always to shareholders, not fans. Depressing.
ANYWAYS… disagree with you Arsenalist about Graham. The dude saw minimal minutes in the regular season and stunk when he was in there, so why does he deserve time when it matters most? He did nothing during the season to warrant any burn in the playoffs. On the other hand, I have NO idea why Smitch refused to put Hump in… instant energy/rebounding was exactly what we needed.
Bottom line - the issues that plagued us all season were on full display in the playoffs. The type of play that typifies playoff ball only exacerbates and magnifies any issue(s) a team has. Our talent level simply cannot compete with Orlando’s. Our supposed “depth” means nothing when we have more middle-of-the-road players than most teams. We need more top-level talent, both on O and D. Because of this I disagree with the assertion that if you switch coaches, we would have won the series (not defending Smitch in any way here).
April 29, 2008 at 9:37 am
Khandor.. co sign.
Selling jerseys, foam fingers, hats and beer is more important then Championships. Not only, to BC and MLSE but (by some of the comments on this blog and others) to fans alike. Does it matter Parker sucks, Jose is not clutch, and half the contending teams in L are interested in Sam? No! They want “7 seconds or less” and boy scouts that will help their granny cross the road, that they like on a personal level, so they can forgive their shortcomings on the court. Championships.. shmapionships! Appealing to the short term goals and stopping the bleeding, as opposed to seeing the big picture and getting surgery, (decapitating BCs head) to get to the core of the problem is much more important.
The sheep are many, pastors few. And as long as those pastors are Chuck and Leo (the biggest BC cheerleaders out there) for the majority of “casual” fans..no KEY changes will be coming.
Sad and pathetic.. yet very true. And I should say.. all that.. in my, perhaps at times not so humble, opinion.
April 29, 2008 at 9:45 am
@Birdman.. I wanted to say the same to cuzzy re: switching coaches, but initially refraind That has to be the most absurd thing I have read on here. Although, he did say probably.. not that changes anything
Has he heard of D12, the Turk and Lewis? What players compare to our in any way shape or form?
April 29, 2008 at 9:46 am
I am not someone who thinks that Sam Mitchell is a great NBA head coach … BUT to think that he alone is to blame for the failure of this year’s team to progress is a complete mis-fire.
You might not like the answers I WILL give you BUT if you ask me I CAN give you sound explanations for each and every decision he made when it came to coaching this year’s team.
The fact is … I don’t like many of the answers myself … but this, in and of itself, does NOT invalidate their soundness.
The problem with the Raptors franchise is TOP DOWN:
1 Ownership
2 GM & Co
3 Head Coach & Co
4 Individual Players
and it NEEDS to be fixed in that specific order … if there is ever going to another NBA or NHL championship won on behalf of the City of Toronto.
April 29, 2008 at 9:46 am
Hey Arsenalist & Posters,
I just want to give you props for running an excellent board and review of the games. I’m a Magic fan here in O-Town but I’ve found your analysis of the series excellent. It’s a fresh perspective from the other side of the floor and a great read. And it’s funny to hear so many of the same complaints as written here in Orlando but with different players and coaches named. The world is a bitchfest, ya know?
And even if your guys aren’t playing round two, they can now enjoy a few days at our lovely theme parks. Why…I think I see TJ and Bosh riding Space Mountain right now!
Next year?
April 29, 2008 at 9:56 am
Did anyone count how many times Chuck and Leo mentionned Jamario Moon’s groin? They were quite painful to listen to.
April 29, 2008 at 9:59 am
Khandor.. I (for one) was not implying that Sam is the best or that Jose totally sucks. It just that some people seem to throw Sam and TJ (namely) under the bus without taking into account Sam’s strengths and Jose’s weaknesses. Not to mention, they don’t (for the most part) suggests replacements, realistic ones anyway, that would be willing to come here and work with this level of talent.
@cheapguitar..LOL! Actual txt to a friend last night: “Hey, at least they don’t have to spend money on plane tickets to start summer vaction, Goofy and Donald are just around the corner.
April 29, 2008 at 10:27 am
Birdman according to your Graham argument Bargnani also should’ve been benched and also Kapono. Look at the series Kapono ended up having in the playoffs after sucking for the entire year. IMHO Graham could’ve done something on defense..don’t you agree that it would’ve been worth the shot?
Fourth quarter offense was as big a reason for the loss as the defensive problems. The Raptors giving it to Bosh hoping he can score against Howard in the fourth isn’t a bad strategy but will only work if Bosh can use his quickness which he didn’t. D12 dominated him all over the court and we were never going to win like that. That matchup needed to be even for us.
April 29, 2008 at 10:41 am
#3 by khandor is an excellent post. BC will have to compete for free agents with every other team. The Hawks/Sixers/Celtics/Wiz/Cavs are going to make it tough for BC to do anything. I never said I had faith in BC making all the right off-season moves even though I think his job is very clear-cut this summer (even more so that it was last year).
His failure to pick up help at the trade deadline is the reason we lost. So far he’s gotten two opportunities to fix obvious problems and he’s let them pass, I hope this summer isn’t the third one.
You also have a point on the making money vs. winning argument but I think that applies more to the Leafs. MLSE knows that in order for the Raptors to make money they need to win, the Leafs don’t. So as long as the Raptors are moderately successful MLSE is happy, obviously they wouldn’t mind more home playoff games. I do think BC’s priority is basketball over making money although both of them must go hand-in-hand for a franchise to be successful. If you’re complaining about the Raptors ownership not caring enough about money and more about finances, welcome to the NBA. Almost all franchises are like that.
I’d rank your list as follows:
1 GM & Co
2 Head Coach & Co
3 Individual Players
Ownership is a big factor but I don’t think it has negatively affected the Raptors. The owners gave BC money to sign a free agent or two in the summer, its not their fault he added a shooter instead of a defender/rebounder.
@Birdman -
“Our talent level simply cannot compete with Orlando’s. Our supposed “depth” means nothing when we have more middle-of-the-road players than most teams. We need more top-level talent, both on O and D. Because of this I disagree with the assertion that if you switch coaches, we would have won the series (not defending Smitch in any way here).”
Good point about the talent level. I don’t think we definitely win the series if we switch coaches but I think we wouldn’t have horrid first quarters in the first two games (f*cked up starting lineups) and would have adjusted to the Magic’s drive ‘n kick philosophy and would’ve attacked Howard more and tried to get him out of the game. We definitely would’ve increased our chances.
April 29, 2008 at 10:52 am
Crank, my argument against Joey has little bearing on Kapono or Bargs for that matter. We’ve SEEN Kapono and Bargs have success in this league (however fleeting).
There is much more risk putting in someone like Graham simply because we’ve never seen nor can expect anything positive. “Giving it a shot” is wayyyy too risky in the playoffs because of the importance of every possession, unless we’re getting blown out and in garbage time, which didn’t happen in this series. Having said that, I’d be interested to know if BC has ever mandated Smitch to keep Bargs starting and on the floor for developmental reasons.
If this is the case, as has been raised before, benching (or at least, not starting) Bargs is akin to BC admitting he made a mistake in drafting him, which I can’t see happening. This may be a stretch but worth thinking about.
April 29, 2008 at 11:20 am
I still think it’s the players. I find it hard to believe that we(non NBA players, coaches, staff, etc) know more about the game than Sam. Games 2,3,4 and 5 we’re in it at the end but come up short. The players screwed it up.
SVG even said after game 2 that Turk was not the 1st option on his crazy drive at the end. But it went in and SVG looks good and Sam doesn’t. If he misses Sam looks good and SVG doesn’t.
Players win and lose games. And the coach takes the fall, unfortunatly. If Sam is fired he will be coaching somewhere else in the NBA next season cause he can coach. Simple as that.
April 29, 2008 at 11:21 am
(following on from my previous message)
Now … proceeding logically from there …
If you assume and accept that
#1 Is not going to change anytime soon,
then you must move on to #2
and ask yourself the same question.
If you assume and accept that
#2 Is not going to change anytime soon …
first you might want to ask yourself, why not? since a poor GM like Rob Babcock was in fact given less than 3 full years on the job, after starting without the benefit of considerable cap space, expiring contracts, a No. 1 Overall Draft Pick, a player who just finished No. 2 in the ROY balloting, and a Point Guard with a FIBA World Championship to his credit …
then you must move on to #3
and ask yourself the same question.
If you assume and accept that
#3 is not going to change anytime soon …
first you might want to ask yourself, why not?
and, if the only answer you get back … is the cost to the BOTTOM LINE for the operation of this team to pay an exorbitant amount of money to a decent head coach NOT to coach this team while then paying an even bigger sum of money to another head coach to coach the team into the playoffs but without ever winning the championship … then that’s enough right there to let you know exactly where the priorities lie these days with the owners of this franchise … and
then you must move on to #4
and ask yourself the same question.
If you assume and accept that
#4 is in fact going to change soon …
because it’s the PATH OF LEAST RESISTANCE,
this will focus your attention in the area that WILL (not SHOULD) produce the most immediate effect on the quality of this team heading toward next season, and beyond.
At present, there are 15 active players on the Raptors’ roster which started out this past season looking like this …
Ford
Parker
Kapono
Bosh
Bargnani
———-
Calderon
Delfino
Graham
Humphries
Nesterovic
———-
Martin
Dixon
Moon
Garbajosa
Baston
and ended up looking like this in Game 1 of the 1st Round of the Playoffs …
Ford
Parker
Bargnani
Bosh
Nesterovic
———-
Calderon
Delfino
Kapono
Moon
———-
Humphries
———-
Graham
Brezec
———-
Martin
Garbajosa
Baston
and then like this for the Elimination Game 5 …
Ford
Parker
Moon
Bosh
Nesterovic
———-
Calderon
Delfino
Kapono
Bargnani
———-
Humphries
———-
Graham
Brezec
———-
Martin
Garbajosa
Baston
and ask yourself …
Are there any franchise players on those lists after you get past the names of Bosh & Calderon?
Are there any movable parts that, in combination with expiring contracts and potential draft picks, can/will bring another franchise player back in return to the Raptors, as a compliment to Bosh & Calderon?
Are there players who could possibly step up and into a bigger role next season for this team with a new emphasis/opportunity/direction from the existing coaching staff?
———————————————————-
Contrary to what some others may think … IMO there are a few different solid line-ups to be found amongst the Raptors’ current group of Core Players, for example
STARTERS: 1 Calderon 2 Kapono 3 Moon 4 Humphries 5 Bosh
BACK-UPS: 1/2 Parker 2/3 Delfino 3/4 Graham 4/5 Bargnani 5 Nesterovic
which could/would be augmented nicely by (I) the addition of a solid Wing Player obtained in return for TJ Ford; and (II) the signing of a solid veteran PG to back-up Calderon (and Parker) in an emergency situation.
April 29, 2008 at 11:33 am
Birdman, I agree that every possession in the playoffs is very important but its not like Sam is coaching it that way. There’s zero risk in putting in Graham out there in the first quarter for 5 minutes and see what he can do. Its not like Parker and anybody else is doing anything great out there that you’ll experience a drop-off.
khandor, I do agree that only #3 (coach) and #4 (players) are likely to change and less so the coach because of the finances involved. It comes down to what BC can do on the open market with the limited amount of talent he has to deal with. Lets face it, the guy has not improved the talent level on this team over the last two years and its going to be hard to do that this summer. At best we can hope for a solid draft or a great trade. I think if we want to improve this summer we’ll HAVE to part with Kapono and/or one of Calderon/Ford .
When you look at our roster and compare it to the Hawks, Sixers, Washington and other teams in that echelon you notice that we have the least amount of bargaining chips to work with. Its going to be a tough summer and I’m going to bet on BC acquiring some rebounding help and hoping Bargnani can somehow improve the offense next season while taking on a bigger role defensively. All of BC’s eggs are in the Bargnani basket which might not be a great strategy.
April 29, 2008 at 12:02 pm
(continuing on from before)
… as long as there is a re-focus on the Basketball Philosophy which exists currently with this team and a NEW emphasis is implemented which LOOKS LIKE THIS:
1. Bosh is the CENTER on this team, not the PF.
1A. Bosh needs to focus on his Shot-blocking, Rebounding and Team Defensive Skills, which are considerable … if he abandons his offensive focus which has unfortunately dominated his early years in the League, and does not recognize correctly what his strengths & weaknesses are as an NBA player.
2. Calderon is the POINT GUARD on this team … come h*ll or high water. FULL STOP. Emphasize HIS strengths. Minimize HIS weaknesses.
3. Bargnani is a one-dimensional BACK-UP in this League. FULL STOP.
4. Kapono is a ‘Reggie Miller-esque’ player … who sucks on Defense & in terms of Rebounding … BUT who, if you run a combination of set plays specifically designed for him, can be an effective Shooter/Scorer in the NBA for a top tier team, as long as he is partnered on the Wing with a solid athletic Defender/Rebounder/Slasher that can do the dirty work for him.
5. Moon is a serviceable Wing Player in the NBA, who is athletic enough and a good enough Defender/Rebounder/Shot-blocker/hustle guy to make an impact with a team like Toronto, as long as they partner him with a dead-eye shooter like Kapono.
6. Humphries is the GOON that needs to play beside Chris Bosh … in order to (A) take the scoring load off CB4, cause Hump can fill it up, when he’s allowed to emphasize his offensive game, and (B) bring some badly needed physicality to the Raptors front-court … while still aloowing Chris Bosh to be the Biggest Player on the floor for the Raptors which in turn creates the individual Defensive/Offensive match-ups which play into CB4’s strengths & weaknesses, as a dominant player in this League.
7. Parker (6-6) is a terrific back-up at the 1/2 positions in the NBA for a high calibre team … i.e. if in doubt, think back to the role that Ron Harper played for the Bulls and Lakers championship teams … as someone who can do a lot of things at an okay level, including shoot, defend, rebound, dribble and pass the ball, BUT none of which he does at a HIGH enough level to ever be a starting player for a championship team.
8. Nesterovic is a serviceable player who knows his role on a team, is capable of sitting for long stretches and then still giving you a solid effort at both ends of the floor as a Big body who can hold his own against the top Centers in the NBA, as a sturdy back-up.
9. Graham is the type of physical, low maintenance player who is very serviceable as a back-up Wing player in the NBA.
10. Delfino is a career back-up player in the NBA.
11. Brezec is a loose cannon.
12. Baston isn’t good enough to play in the NBA.
13. Garbajosa, if he can ‘fully’ recover from his devastating leg injury, is the kind of solid 4/3 player this team was missing this season. If not, he will need to be released, so that he can return to Europe and (re-)start anew.
14. Ford needs to be traded, in return for a solid, multi-dimensional Guard/Wing Player.
15. Martin needs to become a full-time assistant coach.
April 29, 2008 at 12:05 pm
I was formulating a long reply to Khandor’s 1st post but a lot of my fire has been stolen. Don’t take that personally Khandor, much of what you say is true (sigh) but there’s something about your style that seems to make me want to post.
Can’t say this is my least favourite team. I actually lost interest around the same time VC did. Guess that makes me a bit of a tribal fan. However, this is the most infuriating team I’ve supported. For a stretch it looks like the Euroball experiment can work and we’ll stick to all the Steven A. Smith types who yammer on about softness and don’t know what they’re talking about. Then it turns out they’re right in spite of themselves. Man this team plays soft.
I won’t get into a defence of BC (not a genius but can’t think of another GM I’d rather have who was realistically available) but one thing that strikes me is that we are going to have to forge ahead with the Euroball experiment. There’s no way we can turn over more than half the roster and half the roster fits the current experiment. That’s the thing about this team. This year proves there’s something going on in the locker room. It’s not as simple as Jose vs TJ/Euros vs NCAA but that’s part of it. If BC’s smart he knows he has to make moves that address our defensive/rebounding issues and add a bit of mental toughness to the whole unit without disturbing the pieces that remain (I’m talking about Jose and budding bust AB). We need a SF/SG who drives the basket and boards who can also fit with what will remain on the roster from this year. Sh*t that’s a tall order. That said, one of the Chicago newspapers ran a story saying a TJ for Nocioni deal made sense for Chicago - worth a shot if Paxson will do it, no? I’m also wondering about TJ for Nene but not sure Denver wants an undersized PG who has a tendency to hog the ball.
Oh, and I think Smitch has to go or at least turn the offence over to a coach BC chooses. When we’re soft we’re not just soft but stagnant. Not a pretty picture.
April 29, 2008 at 12:09 pm
Some parting observations … when seeing Sam on tv in game 5, I sensed, for the first time, that Sam was fearful and panic-stricken. His team was going down and no amount of ‘motivation’ could help. Sam became human and showed fear on his face … go figure ..!!!
BC must pull the trigger really hard on this team because he can’t continue the bastardized mix of US and Euro bball .. it’s too confusing for players and coaches.
Seriously, I would consider trading Bosh because he is a limited talent with no more upside left in his game. Bosh is a prime one-on-one US player and may not fit into a Raptor Euro-team .. plain and simple.
I’m sure BC is thinking ‘outside the box’ when projecting the Raptors of the future. If he wants to get anywhere within the next 3 years, drastic changes must be made to the current Raptors roster.
Everybody including me thought the Celtics and Pistons were the cream of the East .. but that cream has slightly soured now that they both are at 2-2 against supposedly inferior teams. Are we witnessing cracks in the the stacked team and the team of ancients???!!!!!
If the Celtics and Pistons are stumbling so early in the playoffs, does that mean they will be vulnerable in the next season?? Perhaps BC has less than 3 years to rebuild the Raptors if he wants to contend in the East… ya think ..??!!!
April 29, 2008 at 12:11 pm
Looks like Khandor posted as I was posting. Got to agree with his 1st point. Bosh is not a franchise player in the Jordan/Lebron/Kobe mould but if he became a force on D and made rebounding his focus he would help this team more than by scoring. The only way to salvage the AB experiment would be to slot Bosh into a more defensive role and hope that AB can pick up the slack offensively. I’m not saying that will happen but that’s the highest percentage option available from what I can see. I think that’s why Smitch either has to go or turn over the offence to a new assistant because I just don’t see him making that adjustment.
April 29, 2008 at 12:36 pm
khandor, khandor, khandor.. back to full form I see.
IMO:
I really don’t see Bosh as C… as FAQ said before, that mentality will wear him down much sooner then need. His D will never come now that he has been sold on being the no1 scorer and offensive threat in the L.
Jose is nice for the regular season and 3 1/2 qs in playoff games. Again, clutch is not part of his repertoire and never will be.
Bargs bashings are pre- mature. Next year, same results..I’m with ya!
Graham and Parker belong in the NBDL, unless you move Parker to the 1 as a back up.
Everything else.. I’m pretty much agree with.
April 29, 2008 at 1:01 pm
Arsenalist,
Unlike you and others, I have not seen evidence thus far to indicate to me that Bryan Colangelo has what it takes to put a championship team together in the NBA.
At no time did he ever come close to doing it in Phoenix, as their GM.
What he’s done in Toronto, so far, is create an entertaining, soft team that can score a lot of points, win a lot of regular season games, make the playoffs and make a lot of $$$ for the team’s owners … which is precisely what he did in the Valley of the Sun, before he left for greener pastures elsewhere.
I have not seen any evidence, so far, of the type of ‘toughness’ and ‘basketball acumen’ it takes, by a top notch GM in this league, to construct the type of deep, cohesive, athletic (strong, long & explosively quick), fundamentally sound and well-balanced Defense/Rebounding/Efficient Offense team it takes to go all the way in this League and win the championship.
Did you see the performance Joe Johnson put on last night in Atlanta’s victory over Boston?
Imagine what Phoenix might have done the last 3 years … if Colangelo had the foresight/willingness to keep JJ on board and not trade him away for Boris Diaw (serviceable yes; but NOT a franchise player) because it was too much of a strain financially on the Suns budget?
Jerry West was a top notch GM in this League for years and years.
Gregg Popovich & RC Buford are the top dogs today.
Mitch Kupchak is about to take his kick at the can.
Joe Dumars already has 1 NBA championship to his credit.
Danny Ainge has now engineered the greatest single-season turnaround in NBA history.
Danny Ferry won a championship in San Antonio AND has Lebron James.
Kevin Pritchard is off to a h*lluva start in Portland, has a terrific young team … and is about to add GREG ODEN.
Sam Presti apprenticed with the Spurs multiple championship teams, has an interesting nucleus in Seattle … and an ascending Superstar in KEVIN DURANT.
Otis Smith (and Dave Twardzik, who has a championship from his playing days in Portland) has a very tough three-headed monster in Orlando with Superman, Hedo & Rashard, plus two former NCAA national player-of-the-year in Jameer Nelson & JJ Redick (who hasn’t even begun to play yet for the Magic).
Ernie Grunfeld has taken the New York Knicks to the Finals previously and ressurrected a once moribund franchise in Washington that now has as an athletic team as any other outfit in the NBA, with 3 high calibre players - i.e. Arenas, Butler & Jamison - and a tonne of quality depth.
The list of solid teams on the cusp of breaking through Big Time … goes on and on today in this league … in places like New Orleans, Utah, Houston, Philadelphia, Atlanta, New Jersey, Chicago, Charlotte, Indiana, Golden State, Dallas and Denver all thinking they are on the right track to future success … with outfits like Sacramento, LA Clippers, Miami, New York, Milwaukee, Minnesota, and even Memphis not that far away, when you look at things from their perspective rather than just from Raptorland.
Slipping into perennial ‘treadmill’ status … is a fate even worse than being at the bottom of the league for a brief period of time (e.g. 2-4 years) but with a bright future ahead.
Here’s a quote I read yesterday from Chris Webber, which sums up how he feels about the ‘effect’ of Joe Dumars on the operation in Detroit,
“No disrespect to Flip (Saunders), but it doesn’t matter what Flip says, because they take on the personality of Joe Dumars. Rip (Hamilton), Chauncey (Billups), Tayshaun Prince, Rasheed (Wallace) and (Antonio) McDyess are very mad right now, they probably aren’t even talking and they are probably just saying, ‘ok we’re going to go win this game.”
Can you say the same thing about Bryan Colangelo in Toronto?
I don’t think so.
April 29, 2008 at 1:42 pm
khandor, show me when I said BC has the ability to create a championship contender? I think your post #31 couldn’t be more right.
I also don’t think the Raptors are aiming for a championship in the next 5 years anyway. They’re hoping to be a competitive team which can get some home playoff games and some butts in the seats - again, make some money while keeping 90% of the fans relatively happy. You and I can bitch and moan about the reality that this system will never win anything significant but as I said before right now the goal of the franchise is to be entertaining and relatively competitive, not Spurs-like.
April 29, 2008 at 1:48 pm
sam mitchell.
April 29, 2008 at 2:01 pm
Hey Khandor, how can JJ Redick be an asset for Orlando but Bargs is a total bust?
April 29, 2008 at 2:02 pm
[...] - Arsenalist [...]
April 29, 2008 at 2:11 pm
khandor Says: “I have not seen evidence thus far to indicate to me that Bryan Colangelo has what it takes to put a championship team together in the NBA.”
Really khandor … you have an abysmally short memory concerning BC’s hiring as GM. BC was brought into the Raptor organization because the team had lost all credibility amongst players and owners. He was to be the saviour of the Raptors like he was in PHX .. remember???!!!
MLSE was most likely in panic mode prior to hiring BC because they knew the franchise was potentially tanking after all the disasterous GMs and failed head coaches. Yes, BC was their saviour … and now he must single-handedly rebuild the Raptors instantaneously??!!! Give BC a break because miracles don’t happen in the NBA !!!
April 29, 2008 at 2:17 pm
Arsenalist,
I believe you when you say that you have never said that you think Bryan Colangelo is capable of putting together a championship NBA team.
There’s no problem there, from my end.
One of the things that I don’t understand is how come certain Raptors’ fans (TYPE B) - not you necessarily - who want to see an entertaining, competitive team but one that isn’t ever going to be capable of winning a championship (or two) down-the-road, actually ‘put down’ other Raptors’ fans, like me (TYPE A), who are NOT content with this type of fan experience, exclusively, and want from the team which they support a solid commitment to prioritize the winning of a championship in addition to also being a competitive team on a consistent basis … and who are willing to critique this team’s efforts, in this regard, as a part of their/our overall ‘experience’ as a Raptors’ fan.
In the minds of certain ‘TYPE B fans’ a ‘TYPE A fan’ is somehow less of a true blue (Red/Purple/White?) Raptors’ fan than is someone who is a ‘TYPE B fan’ … which, when you look at it without any bias, MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL … i.e. those like me are somehow less of a fan because we also want/demand that the team prioritizes winning a championship.
April 29, 2008 at 2:24 pm
Sam,
In what Draft position was Redick picked?
How much playing time has he received to this point in his career?
At no point have I ever used the word ‘bust’ to describe Bargnani.
‘Bust’ is what I’d use to describe Pamela Sue Anderson’s chest … and Michael Olowokandi’s performance in the NBA to this point.
Bargnani is a one-dimensional player who is quite capable of having a long and productive NBA career, and was a poor selection as the 2006 No. 1 Overall Draft for the Toronto Raptors.
IMO … what I think of JJ Redick is entirely different from what I think about Andrea Bargnani, to this point in each of their still young NBA careers.
April 29, 2008 at 2:36 pm
We can speculate about what BC will do, and why he didn’t do it this year. I don’t think it’s a big statement to say this was a disappointing season. With the way last season ended on such a high note – exclusive of losing to VCme – this year probably never had a chance. At least with Toronto-mania fans
Looking back at the year, who would’ve thought Garbo was toast for the season? We needed his grit. And who expected Jose to blossom, and Bargs to slam face first into the sophomore jinx – mask aside? Who would have expected TJ to go down, then come back, and cause such a dilemma. Who would have thought that our chemistry – limited as it may have been – would completely disappear, as the play-offs came into site.
And with respect to Bargs, I think – unlike many – that Andrea still has a great upside. Add a Big man coach, some quality training …. maybe a hypnotist, and anything is possible. You guys/gals give up way too easy.
We need to clear up the PG situation, grab a quality 2 or 3 (during the summer, or at the trade deadline), and who knows where we can go.
I think most people just don’t get it. Rome wasn’t built in a day, and despite the set-backs this year, and the frustration we all felt, I like the Raps. And I would trade this disappointment for all the crap VCme and guys like Mourning, Alston and such, brought to the team. We need to relax and learn that hindsight is great from our vantage point. Try being the guy in charge – he doesn’t have that luxury. Then again, that’s why we pay him the big bucks.
And yes, as much as I like Sam, I think (and expect) BC to reassess his skills and abilities. Damn the money.
Hear that …. teachers? :- )
April 29, 2008 at 2:44 pm
RapthoseLeafs, nothing you said isn’t right but one of the points being discussed today is whether this is the right approach to team-building or does it just get you where its gotten Phoenix which is nowhere.
I’m a hardcore Raptor fan but I still fall into the Type B category as described by khandor. I want to see us get to the playoffs for 4 or 5 straight years and make it past the first or second round a few times. Once we’re done that then I’ll become a Type A fan.
See #21 - its going to be tough to build and get better this summer because of all the other teams in the weak East getting stronger. If we hope to win a series next year the major production will still have to come from our top guns - aka Bosh, Calderon, Bargnani and whoever we acquire for TJ Ford. This team will not be that much different next year, don’t expect an overhaul. We’re building around Bosh/Bargnani unless Bargnani has another horrible year. Thats when BC’s got to change it up.
April 29, 2008 at 2:49 pm
FAQ,
You will need to explain to me what I said in this quote:
———————————————————
khandor Says: “I have not seen evidence thus far to indicate to me that Bryan Colangelo has what it takes to put a championship team together in the NBA.”
———————————————————
has to do with what you wrote in response
———————————————————
Really khandor … you have an abysmally short memory concerning BC’s hiring as GM. BC was brought into the Raptor organization because the team had lost all credibility amongst players and owners. He was to be the saviour of the Raptors like he was in PHX .. remember???!!!
MLSE was most likely in panic mode prior to hiring BC because they knew the franchise was potentially tanking after all the disasterous GMs and failed head coaches. Yes, BC was their saviour … and now he must single-handedly rebuild the Raptors instantaneously??!!! Give BC a break because miracles don’t happen in the NBA !!!
———————————————————-
and how YOUR PERCEPTION of why the Raptors did what they did concerning the hiring of Bryan Colangelo at the time is somehow related to MY PERCEPTION of (i) what he accomplished as the GM in Phoenix, and (ii) what he’s accomplished as the GM in Toronto, to this point.
=========================================
Give BC a break?
What for.
BC took a championship finalist team in Phoenix and promptly missed the playoffs with that team, with a losing record.
BC then traded away a young Steve Nash.
BC then traded away Jason Kidd for Stephon Marbury.
BC then built a nice contending team on the back on two solid draft picks, Shawn Marion & Amare Stoudemire, who he decided to keep AND the decision by Steve Nash to be re-united with his wife & family in Phoenix when Mark Cuban declined to offer him a max contract extension and cut him loose as an UFA.
BC then left the Valley of the Sun for the opportunities which presented themselves in the Great White North without ever building a team that even so much as made it to the NBA Finals, never mind ever winning a championship.
BC then took over a team that had considerable cap space through the efforts of the interim GM, a franchse Center (CB4), a World Championship winning Point Guard, the No. 2 player in the 2005-2006 ROY ballotting and, as LUCK would have it, the No. 1 Overall Draft Pick in the 2006 NBA Lottery (during his 1st off-season on the job)… and in one fell swoop
signed/traded for a slew of players on the current roster and
drafted Andrea Bargnani
which has resulted in the 27-55 team he inherited posting consecutive 1st Round Playoff Exits following regular season W-L marks of 47-35 and 41-41.
Where in there do you see anything that REQUIRES me or any other Raptors’ fan to give this person ‘a break’?
April 29, 2008 at 2:52 pm
Khandor, Before I add my comment, just let me say I’m not trying to shut you up or anything like that. The debate’s what keeps me coming back to this board when I should be working. But . . . do you enjoy watching basketball? What I mean by that is do you ever sit down on a Thursday night and watch Golden State play Phoenix and just bask in the crazy beauty of the game? Who care who’s winning the trophy this year?
April 29, 2008 at 2:59 pm
Fuck it, khandor convinced me: BC Sucks.
I like Wham’s take, I’m a Type B fan right now and once they win a playoff series for two years in a row I’ll become a Type B fan. In the meanwhile I’m just looking for a 50 win regular season and some playoff success. Even thinking about a championship is pointless without having won 6-7 playoff rounds, lets get there first and then talk about Larry’s trophy.
April 29, 2008 at 3:13 pm
Sam,
Each and every time I watch a basketball game, I’m enthralled by its beauty, complexity, simplicity and profundity.
That said, a terrific game to me involves, for example, this year’s Spurs, Lakers, Celtics, Pistons, Hornets, Rockets, Jazz & Mavericks teams … cause they each play a different form of the game that involves each of its 3 important phases … i.e. Defense, Rebounding & Efficient Offense.
To appreciate most of all a version of the game that emphasizes only 1 of those 3 phases at the expense of the other two is to me not really appreciating what the actual game is about.
April 29, 2008 at 3:15 pm
btw … is profundity a word?
April 29, 2008 at 3:26 pm
khandor Says:
FAQ, You will need to explain to me what I said in this quote:
———————————————————
khandor Says: “I have not seen evidence thus far to indicate to me that Bryan Colangelo has what it takes to put a championship team together in the NBA.”
———————————————————
has to do with what you wrote in response ………
Perhaps I assumed incorrectly, but now that you have clarified your position that you require the Raptors to be a ‘championship’ team and nothing less, I think my response to you is quite a propos …
BTW … I say that with complete profundity ….
April 29, 2008 at 3:27 pm
FWIW …
I also appreciate immensely what Lebron James brings to the table every game;
The opportunity for ‘greatness’ which lies before the Trailblazers, Bulls and Wizards, as a group … and a supernova talent like Kevin Durant;
The ‘Riverboat Gambler’ instincts of an erudite student of the game like Steve Kerr, who willed himself into becoming an NBA player in the first place, and has risked it all with Shaq, because he knows in his heart-of-hearts that the Suns had NO CHANCE following the path they were on before his arrival … despite the shockwaves their ouster from these playoffs tonight will cause in Phoenix;
The Commitment to the Principles of Fundamental Team basketball … coupled with extraordinary athleticism and grit … now on full display in Philadelphia, under the expert Leadership of ‘Lil Mo Cheeks’ (the PG on my personal all-time favourite NBA championship winning team), with a roster assembled (finally!) by the much-maligned Billy King.
The list goes on and on and on …
April 29, 2008 at 3:30 pm
mark Says: “Fuck it, khandor convinced me: BC Sucks.”
Then the MLSE sucks as well as the entire Raptor roster ….. because discriminating Moronto fans deserve the best and if they can’t get it then it must suck.
April 29, 2008 at 3:36 pm
FAQ,
1. Sarcasm sometimes doesn’t play well in this medium.
2. An inability to separate the baby from the bathwater isn’t a good sign of profundity.
April 29, 2008 at 3:37 pm
khandor Says:
One of the things that I don’t understand is how come certain Raptors’ fans (TYPE B) - not you necessarily - who want to see an entertaining, competitive team but one that isn’t ever going to be capable of winning a championship (or two) down-the-road, actually ‘put down’ other Raptors’ fans, like me (TYPE A), who are NOT content with this type of fan experience, exclusively, and want from the team which they support a solid commitment to prioritize the winning of a championship in addition to also being a competitive team on a consistent basis … and who are willing to critique this team’s efforts, in this regard, as a part of their/our overall ‘experience’ as a Raptors’ fan.
You must be suffering immensely as a Raptor fan who must watch this team struggling mightily with no real hope of emerging a ‘winner’ against the competition assembled in the NBA. Perhaps the solution to your angst is the need for the MLSE to spend at least $100 Million on player salaries to satisfy your needs and wants. Do you think Raptor fans would appreciate a doubling of seat prices and a price hike for RaptorTV as well as cable prices ..???!!!
April 29, 2008 at 3:43 pm
THIS LADIES AND GENTLMAN IS WHY THIS PLACE IS WELL>> DA BOMB!!!
Intelligent discussion by all parties.. without the (FAQ just for you) one-online emotional yo yos that lurk the cyberworld and ruin it for the rest of us.
That said.. khandor.. you know I have, after some consideration and closer look at BCs track record, jumped on the BC SUCKS bandwagon. Not to say the old wheels in the cranium are still spinning, however slow that may be.
So… most of the GMs you listed in 31 are looking good right now, but we all know didn’t look so in the not so distant past. I mean Danny was looking like a bust GM if ever seen one pre Jesus and KG, Mike K has taken what seems forever to get Kobe where he is at, Jerry (memphis *cough*)and Buford MADE the L what it is today… meaning they are is some ways prototypes for what BC should be. I mean, c’mon these guys were running teams while BC was still in diapers basically. Danny Ferry is effing up the LeBron situation bigtime.. so I dunno about him. Otis Smith did nothing with TMac and Grant Hill. ……. I could go on.
What I am saying is that your criticism, although STAT wise valid should also take some things into consideration. BC was working under the thumb of the old man for a while..he could have just taken over there but he chose to come here and more then likely do his own thing. He inherited what he did and doesn’t seem the type to just start throwing cash around or make radical changes just cuz ppl are throwing around their weight. The “CAN SAM” chants were here last year, the man was reasonable enough to realize it was premature.
Dude is young, he has time on his side and is no way perfect. Let’s maybe wait a while longer before we bring the guillotine down.. be rest assured.. leave his head on the block to let him know we’re just gonna mindlessly take us around like sheep. For all we know.. he will be a Jerry West one day.. racking up ring after ring and looking like a genius in the process.
BC is looking at your post singing: “TIME! TIME! TIME! is on my sidee…. YES! it is.. TIME! TIME! TIME!……”
April 29, 2008 at 3:43 pm
FAQ,
In return for a championship? Hmmmmm … that would be an interesting question to ask TYPE B & TYPE A fans.
Are you suggesting that this is the price that’s been paid to this point for Spurs, Pistons, Heat and Lakers fans? (i.e. seat prices for those teams are double that of Raptors’ tickets and the cost of RaptorsTV)
April 29, 2008 at 3:50 pm
FLUX,
TIME is always on the side of those who are sitting in the catbird’s seat with a full belly.
TIME is never on the side of those who are truly hungry, on the ground looking skyward … waiting for the choo-choo train to roar through their front yard. :-)
April 29, 2008 at 3:52 pm
His whole track record here right now lies on Andrea.. whom as of now has not produced. And if it doesn’t BC is always, as is the case in the NBA with most team, a pick and few trades away form turning everything around. I’m saying that the DOOMSDAY and “will happen with BC” feelings may be a little premature.
Also, the KANDIMAN is not a bust! I refuse to accept that a man as cerebral as him, with no love for the game, and who refused to a pawn in the NBA is considered a bust. Not to mention that when he did turn it on scared the daylights out of ppl. He got sick of being shat on when he knew the criticism was mid directed and said: OH YEAH? Now watch me make you pay me and take your money while I do it half ass.. HOW U LIKE ME NOW?
LOL.. as you can tell I love the KandiMan… I will now be swayed by these mere so called FACTS.. LOL :P
April 29, 2008 at 3:54 pm
That depends on whos watch we are looking.. and you seem to carry a stopwatch.. I got an old school sun dial over here.
April 29, 2008 at 3:58 pm
To see if we can turn away (at least partially) from whether BC sucks (and maybe he does). So now what? You’re the GM and you actually want a ring. Next move?
FWIW I see if TJ and other pieces (including this year’s 1st round pick) are enough to pry Elton Brand from the Clippers in a sign and trade. He’s good. He’s a solid guy in and out of the locker room from all I hear and he might be one of those guys who has the drive we need in the playoffs, it’s just he’s been languishing in Clipperland for so long.
I shop AP to teams at the end of the 1st round who might want a guy who, as I think Khandor aptly put it, is good at most things and great at nothing. I can see him being more valuable to the Spurs than to us or any other mid-tier team. Would they be willing to give up this year’s late #1 or maybe Splitter or Mahinmi (sp?) for him?
I think carefully about making a push for Nocioni. I have not seen a lot of him but his game intrigues me. He can shoot but he doesn’t just hang on the perimeter. He’s willing to throw himself around a bit. He’s a Euro-trained guy but not at all the stereotype. He and Garbo in the locker room with Calderone strike me as a good thing but who knows?
Anyone else?
April 29, 2008 at 4:00 pm
geezz.. you got me so excited.. proofreading is an afterthought
#51 we will NOT just gonna”
#54 “will NOT happen with BC”
Also.. should be really take the PHX resume into consideration and if so how much weight do we put on it?
April 29, 2008 at 4:11 pm
Re #52 - khandor Says: “In return for a championship? Hmmmmm … that would be an interesting question to ask TYPE B & TYPE A fans.
Are you suggesting that this is the price that’s been paid ….??”
Well let me ask you these questions: “Do you think the Raptor team can be turned around in a reasonable timeframe and win any ‘championship’ if they remain within the NBA salary cap??” How long do you think it would take?? Thanks.
April 29, 2008 at 4:14 pm
Sam,
Brand doesn’t create mis-matches for opponents. Love his character but he would not be on my list of possible acquisitions.
Nocioni is another solid back-up, not a quality Starter in the NBA; doesn’t make it onto my list.
April 29, 2008 at 4:24 pm
FAQ,
——————————————————–
re: Well let me ask you these questions: “Do you think the Raptor team can be turned around in a reasonable timeframe and win any ‘championship’ if they remain within the NBA salary cap??” How long do you think it would take?? Thanks.
——————————————————–
Yes, I do.
Prior to the 2006 NBA Draft and with the No. 1 Overall Pick, it was my belief that the Raptors, if they played their cards properly could have found themselves playing in the Eastern Conference Finals by the 2009-2010 season.
Now that it’s 2008, and following back-to-back 1st Round Playoff exits, this is still a doable accomplishment, IMO, if this team was to assess its own situation properly, read the tea-leaves properly across the league, and make the right series of personnel moves, beginning with this off-season.
The problem, in this regard, as I’ve said before, is that I just don’t see the signs that the people running the show right now have this capability.
April 29, 2008 at 4:30 pm
Khandor, and who is on your list of possible acquisitions?
April 29, 2008 at 4:48 pm
Fire Sam Mitchell and blow this team up, Keep Bosh and Calderon though.
April 29, 2008 at 5:00 pm
Colangelo has just confirmed that Sam is safe.
Great news!!
April 29, 2008 at 5:18 pm
You mean logic and reason prevailed? NOOOO!
He must have missed the email from firesammitchell.com! Who starts a website asking for a man to lose his job? That’s ignorant!
April 29, 2008 at 5:59 pm
#60 - khandor Says:
Prior to the 2006 NBA Draft and with the No. 1 Overall Pick, it was my belief that the Raptors, if they played their cards properly could have found themselves playing in the Eastern Conference Finals by the 2009-2010 season.
Fair enough, but that didn’t happen. What happened is BC went with Bargs, Garbo, Parker, Jose … and showing the fans international players. It went over well with the fans and the Raps got into the playoffs. What more can you ask for under the circumstances??
………………..
Now that it’s 2008, and following back-to-back 1st Round Playoff exits, this is still a doable accomplishment, IMO, if this team was to assess its own situation properly, read the tea-leaves properly across the league, and make the right series of personnel moves, beginning with this off-season.
Without specifics, your valid comments bear no weight. What will you say if BC, Gherardidi and Ujiri load the Raptors with international players plus Bosh … as seems likely?
………………….
The problem, in this regard, as I’ve said before, is that I just don’t see the signs that the people running the show right now have this capability.
Well, BC is secure as is Mitchell it seems. What will you say if BC brings in Messina or Blatt as assistant coaches, together with the international players?? This would mean that Mitchell is just a transitional coach to be later replaced by the international assistant coach.
Again, I must reiterate that the Raptors may be built on an international player platform plus a few US players with the approval of NBA Commissioner Stern, who I hope can facilitate some trades between the Raptors and NBA teams with Euro players. If the NBA wants to expand internationally, they must build a proto-typical international team, and their first team should be the Toronto Raptors .. because the regular NBA fans, players and commentators do not currently take the Raptors seriously.
If BC tries to create a US-Euro mixed up team, the Raptors may flounder next season .. because it’s got be be either US-NBA or UN-NBA to function as a basketball team should.
Would you care to speculate for the forum, khandor?? … much appreciated.
April 29, 2008 at 7:13 pm
Yea the Raptors just need to lay down anyways.The Magic put them out no problem .Imagine what the rest of the league would do to them.
April 29, 2008 at 8:13 pm
Sam,
I don’t mean to be evasive at this point but let me say this right now about a slew of different trade possibilities heading toward the off-season …
i) It is much easier and makes more ‘practical’ sense to eliminate specific players I would not like to see added to next year’s team rather than speculate needlessly about the ones I might like to see added via trade;
ii) The reason for this is because of the NBA’s CBA and the difficulty involved with making specific trades work (or not) according to the BYC (1 or 2) status of certain players who might be involved in different scenarios with the Raptors and other teams … e.g. TJ Ford & Andrea Bargnani both fit into this category.
Let me give you one example to illustrate my point:
* I might like to see a deal involving Ford, Bargnani and Carmelo Anthony but 2 of the 3 key players involved (either in a two-way or a multiple team deal) are BYC players and it’s difficult to make that trade work without knowing the specifics of their contract situations and running them through a ‘Potential NBA Trade Checker’ a million times with a variety of different players from different teams to see if an actual deal is possible between Toronto & Denver for those three marquee guys;
versus saying quite simply that
* I would have no interest in acquiring a formerly ‘injured’ player, like Elton Brand, who is a great character guy but doesn’t present the type of mis-match situations which an elite level NBA team needs to have amongst its roster of players.
When you get right down to it, relatively speaking, it’s a waste of time to speculate about who Ford might be traded for because of his BYC status.
Which players might be available (and a good fit) via Free Agency and in the 2008 Draft are much more productive topics, at this point in time, IMO.
April 29, 2008 at 8:25 pm
Khandor, Hate the Anthony option but hey what do I know and I’m not sure it was anything more than an example. Ford’s at about $8mil. for next year and isn’t BYC so you can figure out trades. Nene and Nocioni work for him straight up.
Anyway, I hear you on speculation but the team I support is out and instead of nashing teeth its fun to speculate. Not a bad way to pass the time during adds in this NO/Dal game, which reminds me, it could be worse we could be old and over the cap like Dallas.
April 29, 2008 at 8:51 pm
FAQ,
First thing with me is the need to clear up what I consider to be a fallacious line of discussion/reasoning/argumentation/etc. that only serves to muddy the waters unnecessarily, re: any accurate evaluation of the Raptors’ past/current/future teams … and their European, International or American trained player/coach personnel.
IT DOES NOT MATTER TO ME WHAT COUNTRY SOMEONE WAS BORN IN or WAS TRAINED TO PLAY BASKETBALL.
What matters to me is …
i) Are they coming to the NBA straight from a high school situation?
ii) Are they coming from a US college/university situation?
iii) Are they coming from a Canadian college/university situation?
iv) Are they coming from a ‘minor’ pro league situation?
v) Are they coming with a highly developed skill set?
vi) Are they coming with a highly developed basketball IQ?
vii) Are they coming with a highly developed level of athleticism (i.e. strength & explosive quickness … vertically, horizontally, laterally) & coordination (i.e. hand-to-eye; hand-to-hand; hand-to-foot)?
viii) Are they coming with a highly developed sense of physical, mental & emotional toughness?
ix) Are they coming with a solid work ethic and a well-regarded reputation for being coachable?
x) Are they coming with an exceptional level of energy?
In my experience, as an evaluator of talent … it is completely irrelevant to talk in general terms about this or that player (or coach) as being ‘European’ or ‘American’ or an ‘International’, and I will not waste my time with this type of conversation.
April 29, 2008 at 9:05 pm
Sam,
Using your example …
Ford for Nocioni does work via an NBA Trade Checker but
Ford for Sefolosha does not.
Now, if you don’t mind spending the time, can you also tell me what other combinations of players might work (or not) using those two principal players and whatever other teams/players you would like to include in the mix to make it a viable deal for both teams?
I have no problem whatsoever giving you my opinion on which trades I’d be interested in making to improve the Raptors if I was in Bryan Colangelo’s position today.
(unfortunately what I don’t have is the time to investigate each of these many possiblities myself)
April 29, 2008 at 10:06 pm
Khandor, I’m sure everyone else interested in this blog is salivating at the opportunity to see you and me go back and forth on trade minutiae.
I’d be intrigued by a Ford + ballast for Nocioni & Sefalosha. I hear what you said earlier about Nocioni but with no marquee player to trade the Raptors have to find the guy who has the right talents but is in the wrong system. Maybe Nocioni is that guy. If you could get Sefalosha as well it would be a coup. If I were a Chicago fan I could see hating such a deal. Of course, I could have had Kobe . . .
But with Dallas’s recent exit from the playoffs, I’m wondering (fantasizing more accurately) about Bargs, Rasho and regardless how much ballast is thrown either way (let’s say Joey Graham or Maceo Baston) for Dirk and maybe some ballast on the other end. Not sure why Dallas would make that move but that is a vulnerable team at the moment. They would get serious salary relief in 2009 on this deal. We’d have to get a serviceable big in the draft but it seems heavy on traditional 5’s so that is not a huge stretch.
Anyone else got personel ideas?